230 Comments
User's avatar
B.'s avatar

Read The Fountainhead, saw the movie, like a sappy schmaltzy film for which Rand wrote the screenplay ("Love Letters" with Jennifer Jones), and prefer rugged individualism to the warm embrace of collectivism, and that's all I know.

Clarity Seeker's avatar

It is interesting that so many who oppose the notion of individualism like to post so many snaps of themselves.

B.'s avatar

Good morning, Clarity. The photos are their way of belonging to a group . . . somewhere.

A late breakfast this morning; still chowing down on Passover matzot. Up past ten o'clock last night watching on Citizen app a pretty large pro-Hamas protest at a Jewish senior center where people were exploring home-buying in Israel; a small counter-protest made up (at least per New York Post photo) of mostly yeshivah boys. Lots of helicopters.

Unclear which side carried pepper spray.

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Matzoh a month later? No thanks. 😉. The anti jew brigades will only get stronger in the blue progressive enclaves. Half the congress and senate are on their side ( how many dumb SHJs are too?)

B.'s avatar

Well, the boxes are in shrink-wrapped cellophane. The matzo is still as good as the day it was born.

Spouse's grandfather worked for old Mr. Manischewitz a hundred years ago.

Clarity Seeker's avatar

The birthing of matzoh!. Next post: gefilte fish. The true test

Michael Karg's avatar

It's the word that don't taste right.

Bill Cribben's avatar

Too early to even think about that.

Billiamo's avatar

Gefilte fish isn’t bad; it’s those globs of gelatin that cling to it.

Regine's avatar

I was told it looked like a failed brain experiment. More for me!

Michael Karg's avatar

That's what I liked, they were stale when I bought them.

B.'s avatar

Haha!

Bruce Miller's avatar

I remember how constipated we'd all get as kids eating the peanut butter and jelly on matzoh sandwiches that Mrs. Finkel would make for us.

Brian Katz's avatar

That magic clogging of the pipes still works today.

I avoid it like the plague.

Michael Karg's avatar

PB&J goes only on doughy white Wonder Bread.

Brian Katz's avatar

That stuff lasts forever.

Still clogs my pipes.

No thanks 🤮.

B.'s avatar

Excellent with good Cabot butter and homemade orange marmalade. Goes down easy with a tall cold instant coffee. To some, of course, an unspeakable breakfast.

PoetKen Jones's avatar

My junior high friend Gregg Silverman used to invite me to spend the night and his MILF Mom would teach me about Jewish cuisine at their kitchen counter. First time I tried matzo was crackers from a box. When she explained WHY the unleavened bread is used, I understood but was happy to return to my white bread PBJ WASP kitchen. Lmfao 🤪

Sierras23's avatar

Grew up in New York and my Irish Catholic mother always had matzo in our house along with Levy's rye bread ("You don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's"). A close Jewish friend introduced me to the joy of matzo brie and I confess to loving gefilte fish but maybe because it's a vehicle for horseradish! The best: my mother's Jewish roommate used to treat me to one of her delicious noodle kugels.

Regine's avatar

I preferred Horowitz-Magareten (now part of Manischewitz).

At a California Safeway, long ago, I bought a discounted 5-lb box of Streit's long after Passover; my graduate student shared house supported these economies, especially after I shared a recipe for matzo brei. The clerk turned the box over several times, along 2 axes, even though the $3 tag was clearly visible. She explained: "I don't know if it is food or non-food." I assured it was food, but maybe she thought I was trying to avoid sales tax.

Litr8r's avatar

Good point about the selfies, B. I forgot: the entire world is their group, and don't you forget it!

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Yes. They are the world. Teaching the world to sing in perfect harmony.

PoetKen Jones's avatar

Thanks for helping me understand the joke. I missed it until now. If PoetKen photographed The 2026 Democrats’ Class Photo, I’d put the Mami Mammaries bartender, the (allegedly)gay black city mayor, and the Michigan Karen Governor and Jennifer Granholm on the front row. Chuckle Schumer, the obese Illinois Governor, and Eric Swallowswell in the middle. And as a tribute to Islam, on the back row, Hakeem Jefferies holding the chains of the two remaining Squad members clad in full chadors, or burkas. Say “Government Cheese” 😃 Click!

Clarity Seeker's avatar

A true rogues gallery . And oh so diverse

Mary Cook's avatar

I recently saw Governor Pritizer in a Q&A with a reoprter. He looks to me like he had lost a few pounds. Pritizer has to be on the "jab!" Similar to many other politicians and people (celebrities) in the public eye. It has become so obvious. Between plastic surgery, and weight loss drugs, some people have become almost unrecognizable. This obsession of anti-aging is out of control.

DMang's avatar

“Swallowswell”

If you coined that well done! Poor Eric was the one who got swallowed in the end.

Bill Cribben's avatar

Don’t forget the machetes and samurai swords.

Litr8r's avatar

It speaks perfectly to how the left can't see its own hypocrisy, Clarity!

DMang's avatar

Like many cultish beliefs on the left, the collectivism espoused by its advocates only applies to their followers, not to them. Much like the cult leader who preaches celibacy or monogamy to their star struck followers while he secretly screws all the women (and/or men in some cases) in the compound. Naturally jealousy, anger and the sense of betrayal leads to their precipitous downfall. Yet oddly some remain loyal. Pretty much sums up the mindset in leftist political culture.

Current Resident's avatar

Me too, but I think Rand was a terrible writer and an unpleasant person. Frederick Hayek is probably towards the top of my list. Milton Friedman as well.

DMang's avatar

I agree her writing style left a lot to be desired.

B Smith's avatar

Yes. Stalwart individualism doesn’t have to include making a virtue of the studied disinterest in others, which is what I take from Rand.

B.'s avatar

" . . . the studied disinterest in others." Yes, precisely, but I never said it so well; or even thought to. Thanks.

Robert Moore's avatar

I bow to the comics character, Pogo, who said: "We have met the enemy, and he is US!"

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Is it us, or is it them? Thankfully you did not write U.S. as most dems in Congress believe ( Fetterman and a few others excluded).

Michelle Styles's avatar

Rand has a very specific viewpoint. Marx has another one. I have read the Communist Manifesto. I like Adam Smith who in many ways is more radical than Marx. Marx can't do math btw. Thomas Paine is good. I took a course on political economic philosophy during my senior year of college and thus read them and others.

For those who enjoy politics red in tooth and claw, can I suggest the current Labour party. 83 Labour MPs calling for Starmer to go (and counting).Starmer is grimly determined to cling on. Burnham is desperate to find a seat (but is any Labour constituency safe?) https://order-order.com/

Starmer's speech yesterday was very insulting to people in the North who voted for Brexit and indeed voted for Reform (these were formerly diehard Labour supporters) as he wants closer with the EU and to renationalize British Steel. People who disagree are of course ignorant bigots. There are reasons why just about all the Labour MPs in the North East (except for those in Cabinet) have called for his resignation.

Bruce Miller's avatar

To all the mouth-foaming fiends of leftist Labour -

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place,

which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.

Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.

Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess?

Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?

Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.

Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God's help, and the strength he has given me, I am now come to do.

I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place.

Go, get you out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Preach it Rev Bruce

Michael Karg's avatar

"Preach it!" (Looks better that way).

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Can I get a Hallelujah Brother Karg?

Michelle Styles's avatar

Well quite.

The Labour MPs need to be careful as it could accidentally trigger a General Election. Having called on Starmer to resign, they would be either forced to abstain or vote for a motion of no confidence. Labour would lose in any General Election.

Starmer just keeps making mistake after mistake.

Bruce Miller's avatar

He is the mistake that keeps on giving

Michelle Styles's avatar

Unfortunately. Apparently even his biographer has said that Labour looks nuts.

Starmer is apparently incredibly stubborn and technocratic. He apparently thinks he can ride this out because he is automatically on any Labour ballot and Labour is so split -- a bit how he won the position in the first place.

Why he thought insulting people was the right way to go after they exercised their right to vote and chose not to vote Labour is beyond me.

Bruce Miller's avatar

You know exactly why Starmer responded that way - because every leftist twit and puke thinks he or she is smarter than the benighted peasants upon whom they look down and denigrate as unenlightened.

PoetKen Jones's avatar

Two Tier Queer Kier should use “Working Class Hero” as his campaign Anthem: “You’re still fuckin peasants as far as I can see”

Timothy G McKenna's avatar

kinda like a nympho with syphilis

PoetKen Jones's avatar

You are a poet after all, Bruce.

Bruce Miller's avatar

Not me. Cromwell, But I copy with abandon

Celia M Paddock's avatar

Is that a quotation? If not, I'm truly impressed.

Bruce Miller's avatar

Was Cromwell's speech to Parliament upon dissolving them on 20 April 1653

Celia M Paddock's avatar

Much as I dislike the guy, he definitely had a way with words. It's ironic to recall that it was his Puritan sensibilities that were offended. He would have an apoplexy if he saw modern Britain's leaders.

DMang's avatar

Are you sure about that citation Bruce? Joe Biden claims Cromwell plagiarized that passage from a campaign speech of his in 2008.

Bruce Miller's avatar

Now that you mention it, I believe it was from Biden's law review article that garnered him highest honors of all Syracuse Law School attendees....

DMang's avatar

😆

Sierras23's avatar

Sounds like the democrat party

Michael Karg's avatar

I just can't get interested in British politics.

Bruce Miller's avatar

Yeah but Cromwell's speech to Parliament was a gem.

Michelle Styles's avatar

Yes it was.

PoetKen Jones's avatar

Ahh too early for that allusion. Well played Sir! ⛳️

Timothy G McKenna's avatar

...and then he marched on Ireland and slaughtered as many folks as he could get his hands on. Richard Harris aside, never fond of the guy

Bruce Miller's avatar

True.. But he had a way with words. And with kings.

Timothy G McKenna's avatar

Actually, I bet that was actually the deal with him - I have never met an Irishman who doesn’t believe he wasn’t descended from one king or another.

And you can’t kill the Catholics’ king!

Michelle Styles's avatar

It is bonkers badly behavedness of it. British politics is supposed to be staid and sedate. Has Britain become the new Italy?

This is a reel of Sky News just making a mess of everything as they try to report on this. https://order-order.com/tag/labour-leadership/

People voted for calmness and order. Not this. And Labour need to be careful that they don't accidentally trigger a vote of no confidence. This would mean a General Election which they'd lose.

And lost in the kerfuffle is that Zach Polanski has had to admit that he didn't pay his council tax (property tax) -- he was quite willing to make others pay it but didn't pay it himself. His lies just keep growing. He has been the Jewish face of very antisemitic Green party but the exposure of his lies is something else.

Louisa Enright's avatar

The way the UK and Europe goes is a prediction for the US if we don’t stop the Left and the Globalists here.

Michael Karg's avatar

True, but I ' m f a d i n g .

Louisa Enright's avatar

No. You are vibrant!

Michael Karg's avatar

Awe, thank you.

Brian Katz's avatar

Any suggestions on Austrian economics ?

Those are the real brutalists.

Michelle Styles's avatar

Sorry no, not my area of expertise.

PoetKen Jones's avatar

Sure. Start with Mises. I have a great pamphlet size primer titled “An Introduction to Austrian Economics”. The Chicago school is the American outpost so checking them out helps.

Brian Katz's avatar

Thank you Ken.

Ludwig Von ?

PoetKen Jones's avatar

Yes

Brian Katz's avatar

I found his books, thank you.

Terry Quist's avatar

Note that Argentinian President Javier Milei is a fan of von Mises, as is (strangely) the vocal Brazilian MMA fighter Renato "Money" Moicano, who famously went on a tear after a fight, ""If you care about your f*ing country, read Ludwig von Mises and the six lessons of the Austrian economic school."

cat's avatar

"Economics in One Lesson," by Henry Hazlitt.

"The Road to Serfdom," by Friedrich August von Hayek.

Brian Katz's avatar

Thank you.

PoetKen Jones's avatar

Yes to Hayek

PoetKen Jones's avatar

Get back to the Steel Mills you Bigoted Yobs, or I’ll send solar panels to Newcastle!

Michelle Styles's avatar

Something like that except they shut the factories and pits down years ago. Post industrial wastelands. Real Billy Elliot country.

Labour are about to nationalize the last steel mill in Britain which is in Port Talbot in Wales. Part of the reason it is going under is the high cost of energy due to (you guessed it) Labour's policies. (You have to laugh or you'd cry)

You'd also be amazed at how many solar panels are in Newcastle. They are mostly made by the Chinese. A triumph of hope over reality to my mind.

There has always been a tendency for those from London to think the people from the North East should know their place. Flat caps, ferrets and pigeon fanciers are all they are good for sort of thing. It is more of the same but it is their core voters.

And you have to laugh about the latest Polanski antics -- he has admitted that he did live at houseboat and therefore he owes council tax. However, he had registered to vote at another address and it has been confirmed that he never lived there even though he was registered to vote in that district. This is called fraud and there are laws against it. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/c11c048c31dca66d

Of course there is the Green Party newly elected councillor who has the Ferrari and takes great pleasures in driving it. So much for Fossil Free Britain. Or the Green Party MSP who doesn't have the right to actually live in the country (or indeed to hire staff) but the SNP changed the rules so you didn't have to be citizen to stand for election to the Scottish parliament and the Greens took full advantage.

Sierras23's avatar

Michele, I've never followed British politics much so can you enlighten me? Does thoe Tory party still exist? Wasn't Labour the party of the working class? Has it now morphed into leftist "progressivism" like our democrat party here? What is the Green Party's platform? Thank you much!

Michelle Styles's avatar

A quick primer The Tories are the Conservatives -- they are centre-right and are a big tent party. They are the oldest party. Kemi Badenoch now leads and is bringing them back to conservative roots as they had gone down a much more technocrat route.

Labour are centre-left -- they are still a big tent party (just) and thus still have some who believe in social conservatism and small p patriotism. They have been around since the early 20th century smd sre supposed to be working class. They have given up on class warfare though -- Blair and New Labour forced this through. Starmer currently leads but for how much longer? They have a huge majority because everyone was fed up with Sunak's Conservatives. They are mixed on social issues. Blue Labour is to the right of the party and tends not to be woke. The extreme left tends to be v woke indeed.

The LIb Dems (Liberal Democrats) are centre with a EU bias. They have been around since the mid 1970s when a centre Left of Labour broke off and joined wit he rump of the Liberal party. Basically they are strong in some areas and strong on local issues. My local councillor is Lib Dem and effective. They tend to be progressive on social issues.

Reform is soft to hard right. It is unabashedly nationalistic, sceptical of Europe and wants strong borders. It distrusts big government. Nigel Farage's party with a number of chancers (they keep getting in trouble about donations). Their vetting isn't great either as they tried to grow too rapidly

The Greens used to be bucolic Conservatives with a few Socialists thrown in. People who were concerned about saving the plant one hedgerow at a time. They are now hard Left with an extremely progressive platform and also have this huge sectarian wing which is pro-Gaza. There is a fight coming in this party. It has been a tiny party but many of the people who were kicked out of Labour for extremist views joined the Greens. They grew rapidly and their vetting stinks. They are where the antisemitism has found a home.

Sierras23's avatar

Thank you SO much Michelle. Holy moly I will have to study this for a while to get it all straight in my mind. The Greens remind me of the Democratic Socialists here who have been gaining strength alarmingly. Although they did lose hugely in our last national election the continuing creep in local ones is very concerning.

Michelle Styles's avatar

The current Green party is a lot like the Democratic Socialists or the new Green Party is. They are made up of a lot of people who belonged to Corbyn's Momentum and who were kicked out/left Labour in part because they refused to stop being antisemitic. Entryism is a problem and the Islamists have also noticed.

In the US, the problem is the safe seats where the contest is decided at primary level. It lends itself to abuse by extremists.

Celia M Paddock's avatar

The unabashed fraud is what really boggles my mind. They are now so sure they are in the ascendency that they thumb their noses at the idea of being held accountable for anything.

Michelle Styles's avatar

The fraud is just astonishing. I have been genuinely shocked by Polanski. Why the Greens didn't discover this before he became leader is a mystery. There was a coup and certain people were forced out.

The trans Tamil who doesn't have the correct visa is something a satirist couldn't make up.

Michelle Styles's avatar

Oh I understand because Q is an Indian National, he may also be breaking Indian law which doesn't allow for this sort of thing.

Under the terms of his visa he was allowed to do 20 hours of work outside of his PHD research per week -- paid or volunteer. Campaigning like he has done probably was outside the limits of the visa

And there was the Green counsellor who forgot that they couldn't be employed by the council where they stood for election as they were a teacher and now have had to resign, triggering another election.

Celia M Paddock's avatar

Didn't you say 81 is the tipping point? Does that mean we can expect his ouster sooner than July?

Michelle Styles's avatar

It should have been but he is playing silly legalistic games as he is determined to cling on. Strictly speaking, it needs to be 81 all signing the same letter. There are several different wings vying for the power.

It makes for entertainment but I don't think good governance. There is far too much going on in the world...

Bruce Miller's avatar

Tried her novels a few times and gave up. Not to my taste. Of course she was right about the evils and soul destroying properties of collectivism but that doesn't necessarily translate into great literature.

Just finished Mark Helprin's latest, Elegy in Blue. Liked it a lot. But not as much as the Oceans and the Stars. I think his work resonates with me because he writes from the prospective of an aging male with amazing insight and wisdom. But he did that, too, in A Soldier of the Great War, when he was much younger. Helprin, like Rand is a champion of the individual and of the ancient verities of honor and duty. I highly recommend his work.

Political philosophers? One need look no further than our own Founding Fathers. Jefferson particularly. The rhetoric of our Declaration of Independence will resonate through human history. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." What more need be said? Apparently, Franklin edited Jefferson's prose to add "self-evident' instead of "sacred and undeniable." The same Franklin who when asked what government the Constitution had wrought, replied "A republic, if you can keep it." Prescient words, with our sniveling scoundrels in the disloyal opposition baying like wolves about minority districts, packing the court and creating fictional new states of robotic democrat demons. A party that worships tribal fealty and collectivism is not an American political party in any sense.

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Atlas Shrugged is a hard read

Fully agree about thd FFs

The Rand v Marx choice today is all around us: i see it today ad nationalism v globalism. Of course both were very anti religion , the other major philosophical battle of our time ( the religious v the secular). On both fronts our grade schools have a heavy thumb on the scales for globalism and secularism and we are witnessing the results of 25 years of that indoctrination

Bruce Miller's avatar

Ceding control of education to mushy minded liberals --- what could possibly go wrong?

Clarity Seeker's avatar

From their perspective: right on schedule. Fundamental transformation. And now BU dunderhead says she too wants to change the country: didn't say of course why, how or to what but she sure can smile and bust a dance move.

JBell's avatar

That donkey-toothed smile!

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Hee Haw. HA HA

Michael Karg's avatar

Who's "BU."

Mary Cook's avatar

I was replying to Mr. Karg. Why do these comments often appear haphazardly out of order? While I am at it, I will mention BC (Boston College) is much more my cup of tea.

Sierras23's avatar

The line above your name leads to the person to whom you are replying. If he gets email notifications he will see that you replied.

Sierras23's avatar

My Catholic nuns in the 60's taught that the goal of the communists was to control schools and destroy the nuclear family. Alarming and shocking to see it playing out in real time today.

Art's avatar
May 12Edited

Ayn Rand was an atheist who, having no innate moral authority to guide her, decided that in the absence of God, reason was the guide-star for humanity as many atheists do. Her philosophy of “objectivism” led her to think that the accrual of money was the objective indicator of morality.

She conflated wealth with virtue. Win big selling collateralized debt obligations on Wall Street in 2007? Must be a noble human, and only evil communists would dare seek to prosecute you or criticize you as a parasite on society. Which of course makes Matt Taibbi a communist I guess. Ayn Rand has been idolized by midwit college students on the right for decades in the same way midwit college students on the left idolized Noam Chomsky. Or maybe Abby Hoffman would be a better analog. This has been true for a long time and indeed she spawned a literal cult of worshippers around her during her miserable lifetime.

Sierras23's avatar

I have some friends who insist that I read Atlas Shrugged. Worth it at all?

Art's avatar

For libertarian economics Murray Rothbard is a far better choice. Note what he says in an essay about Rand:

“If the glaring inner contradictions of the Leninist cults make them intriguing objects of study, still more so is the Ayn Rand cult ... [f]or not only was the Rand cult explicitly atheist, anti-religious, and an extoller of Reason; it also promoted slavish dependence on the guru in the name of independence; adoration and obedience to the leader in the name of every person's individuality; and blind emotion and faith in the guru in the name of Reason.”

But for fiction virtually anything else. Personally I’m enjoying the P.G. Wodehouse novels, very funny old stories from the creator of the butler “Jeeves” stories. Right now laughing out loud seems like a good life strategy.

Two Wodehouse first books in a series are

Jeeves series: Leave it to Jeeves

Blandings Castle series: Something Fresh

PoetKen Jones's avatar

She wrote political polemics LARPing as novels: piss poor character development, turgid prose, and plots in total subservience to the message, which has its virtues but taken to extremes yields the results we see now with the 21st century “tech bros”.

Michael Karg's avatar

I'm still working on Niall Ferguson's hierarches and networks.

Celia M Paddock's avatar

My own political perspective is, in fact, shaped mainly by our Founders.

DMang's avatar

Me too

Timothy G McKenna's avatar

Was about to buy Elegy in Blue but reviews were "meh" - I do love his writing, though. I turned my Dad onto "A Soldier of the Great War" and i think I grew in stature with Dad as a result! My other all-time fave is McMurtry's "Lonesome Dove"!

Bruce Miller's avatar

Agree with McMurtry, too. Elegy isn't his best but still very readable. Stick with it.

Kate's avatar

I read the Fountainhead, but it was so long ago that I don’t really remember any political or philosophical message; maybe I should re-read.

I DO remember reading Atlas Shrugged and how much it resonated with me. Maybe the messaging was more obvious in how the story was told or maybe it was because I was reading it during COVID.

Rand is not easy to read so it’s not accessible to many, especially with declining reading comprehension skills. All of the books written by Rand, Huxley and Orwell are such important reminders about how this Republic can and will unravel quickly if we don’t teach others about the common ideals that make it work. I think many people have started to live in the failures (LA, Chicago, NYC) and are realizing that just being kind and caring to all makes life very expensive, diificult and dangerous for the rest of us.

Litr8r's avatar

I read both of those books as well, Kate. They are well written but very slow moving. What's important is the messaging, of course. There are so many great Ayn Rand quotes!

DMang's avatar

I read Atlas Shrugged a few years ago. It is lengthy and though I am a slow reader I did like it.

Dave Slate's avatar

I don't know if I have a favorite, but I'm more or less in favor of libertarianism and free markets. I read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged over 50 years ago after a friend recommended it. It makes some good points about capitalism vs socialism, etc., but it's not subtle. To ensure that the reader has no chance of mistaking the roles of the characters in this massive 1100 page tome, Rand even gives the "good guys" names that connote integrity, perseverance, moral rectitude, and so on (e.g. heroic steelmaker "Hank Rearden"), while the "bad guys" get wussy- and sleazy-sounding names like "Wesley Mouch". I don't regret reading it, but once was definitely enough.

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Mouch! She nailed that one. I sort of like changing the vikings football team to the MINNESOTA MOUCHERS. More in step with Minneapolis today. Plus the Vikings were among history's most vicious oppressors and they were as white as it gets.

Litr8r's avatar

Excellent point about the MN football team!!

Bruce Miller's avatar

Yes but we oppressed equally. It was just all about the plunder. And we didn't oppress our women.

Michael Karg's avatar

Reminded me of Woody Allen's, "Mr. and Mrs. Wunch."

Clarity Seeker's avatar

I think a lot about the role of government. Our founding fathers did as well albeit in a world light years before ours. With technology do we need more or less government and why? Are there limits to government power? Some say yes but never explain how or why. Madison and tbe other fellows thought about it a lot and produced a Constitution now under attack by those who worry about threats to democracy( no Constitution, arguably no democracy). And no virtue likely means limited freedom ( increasingly a notion that means little to those under 35 especially the freedom of others ( they like theirs, which includes tbe freedom and power to limit the rights and freedom of others: ICE protesters good; abortion protesters go to jail).

Rand expressed views more in the abstract than for every day life and governance. I suppose thats what philosophers do. These days I would argue we need less philosophy and more focus on reality. Pay attention to the LA mayors race. Both with respect to the result but even more so the turnout.

I am more focused on the real world these days. We are not on the cusp of trying to figure out who John Galt is, especially since reading is so 20th century.

Michael Karg's avatar

Our Founders were on the cusp of Enlightenment to science, and had settled on "Providence."

Clarity Seeker's avatar

And today Providence is a cesspool im RI

Michael Karg's avatar

I had to read it three times, then it was worth it! Got the laugh.

Brian Katz's avatar

John Galt is Elon Musk, simple.

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Love that one. No wonder the elites hate him so much

Brian Katz's avatar

🎯🎯🎯

Sierras23's avatar

I often reflect on how similar today's protesters are to the more militant ones of the 60'2 and 70's. The difference in my mind is that in the past the media was far more balanced and the adults were holding down the fort against the SDS and others. Today the former SDS attitudes are in control of many in government, education and almost all of the media. The inmates are running the asylum and I have great concern over where it all will lead. Hoping it runs out go gas as it did when we moved into the 80's when everyone decided to get to work and buy a house if they could.

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Ayers and Obama. Perhaps the biggest difference today is the hatred of country instilled over decades of school indoctrination and the mass illegal migration that has transformed so many large cities ( little desire to americanize in contrast to Mexicans who migrated to texas over several generations and of course Cubans who escaped communist Cuba)

Sierras23's avatar

Yes, you've nailed it. Obama studying Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" and the open border during Biden's four years.

Clarity Seeker's avatar

Hard to get that toothpaste back in the tube

JBell's avatar

I am like you, Celia, that I have not read much philosophy..... even in college ( I do not recall any).

My knowledge on this subject isn't limited... it's non-existent.

Michael Karg's avatar

It's actually all gossip, it's like reading the Bible - somebody knows, you don't.

Sierras23's avatar

All I remember from my Philosophy 101 class: "Time is the moving essence of eternity", Plato.

Timothy G McKenna's avatar

"To Be is To Do" - Plato

"To Do is To Be" -Descartes

"Do Be Do Be Do" -Sinatra

I'll see myself out the back door, now...

Sierras23's avatar

I remember that one lol

Danimal28's avatar

Read Atlas Shrugged during the Xiden admin and it was like reading current events. Yes, she was right about a lot.

Michael Karg's avatar

I don't think of political/social thinkers as philosophers, and never think of Ayn Rand as anything other than someone's stories made boring movies. I think of the Ancient Greeks and some later individuals as philosophers of virtue. All so-called philosophers contributed very little and nothing to the well being of Mankind, in comparison to Newton, Newcomen, Watt, Franklin, Volta, Ampere, Faraday, Edison, Carrier, Pasteur, Fleming, Salk, Etc. - considering our comfort and pleasure. What else is worthwhile? Philosophy is good for gossip, like here. My current favorite is Susan Neiman, and newest is Jacob Howell, nothing special but good writing. Nobody is ever going to solve for good and evil.

NoreenL's avatar

I’m not much for philosophy. I find it difficult for the most part. But I will quote someone I like, Mark Twain. “The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie”

Litr8r's avatar

Wow, that quote sure sums up the Dems, Noreen! Spot on!

Celia M Paddock's avatar

That's a Twain quote I hadn't heard before, but it is very appropriate at this moment in time.

Sierras23's avatar

Love that quote

DMang's avatar

I think Twain wisely kept politics at arms length. His disdain for politics and politicians is clearly evident and giving any thorough examination would have been a waste of his precious brain cells and time. In those infrequent cases that he did his sarcasm was delightful.

Liz LaSorte's avatar

I confess the same - I've never read Ann Rand, but for quotes and all that, and a few years ago my son gave me a collection of her novels for Christmas, so I have no excuse now that I own it and I read most of my books from the library, so owning books is a biggie. And I love political philosphopy. But, I did read Michael Malice's really interesting White Pill that discussed her thoughts.

But one thing that always bothered me was her lack of spirituality, as I understood it. I guess it's a road block I want to overcome but have yet to do so.

Michael Karg's avatar

Recipes for power rarely include a god. Oh, wait. That's what got God started. As Kant put it, "...uncomfortably close to wanting to be God."

Liz LaSorte's avatar

🤔

Notes from the Under Dog L.'s avatar

When I was young -- about twenty-one, a friend gave me Ann Rand's "We the Living." It was incredibly compelling. The communist censorious atmosphere was memorably rendered. To be honest, I knew that communism was 'bad' -- when I was a kid in the 60s, I knew that our German neighbors had escaped East Germany. I mentioned knowing this to their daughter who blew a gasket because they were still terrified that the Stazi would track them down in Wheeling, Illinois.

But the novel is also melodramatic to a rather campy degree. Kyra, I think the protagonist's name is, wears a wedding dress for her escape from Russia as it is the only garment that blends in with the snow. She's shot dead with one hand in Finland.

Regardless, the censorious atmosphere has stuck with me all these years, and I have mentioned it to university colleagues who could also see the communist influences on our unwitting peers...just like how, in the novel, certain signals are used to demonstrate whether it's OK to be one's self...

Later I tried reading The Fountainhead. Jacob Needleman, a philosopher teaching at SFSU where I worked the front desk in the Philosophy department, chuckled at my choice of reading materials. However, it was too poorly written to continue, and years later, in a discussion about Susan Sontag's Notes on Camp, someone mentioned the film The Fountainhead as a perfect example of it.

Barry Lederman, “normie”'s avatar

For me, any philosophy starts and ends with the Greeks.

Bill Cribben's avatar

I’ll stick with real philosophers like Yogi Berra. Ayn Rand would’ve never observed it gets late early out there referring to the cavernous left field at Yankee Stadium. That is profound and insightful.

Danny H's avatar

You can observe a lot just by watching.

Mary Cook's avatar

John Locke, without a doubt. I don't particularly care for Philosophy, in general. I never took that course as an elective in college. I did take a higher level Government (my major) course. I was exposed to John Locke and remember thinking how much sense he made. I still use his idea of the "social contract" to explain the rationale of law and order.

Bruce Miller's avatar

A social compact that Democrats breach on a daily basis.

Celia M Paddock's avatar

Because they view everything through the lens of Intersectionality. Their perception of the social contract is that everything is dependent on where you fall on the Oppressor/Oppressed diagram. Their interpretation of the "social contract" is that you are obligated to allow *any* behavior from those who are 'more Oppressed' than you are.

PoetKen Jones's avatar

Forgot to mention Rousseau. He was on my mind a lot when dating the 23 year old, even though I don’t normally agree with the biographical school of literary critics.

Sierras23's avatar

We were required to take two semesters of philospohy in college (the late 60's/early 70's). Even though I can't remember much from it and philosophy is challenging to my more linear, concrete-thinking brain, I do recall some vey prescient bits and pieces. One is from Camus "The Rebel"...to very roughly paraphrase, your freedom does not give you the right to impinge on my freedom. I don't think today's libs ever heard that message.

Celia M Paddock's avatar

When you adopt Intersectional thinking, what you are allowed to do to others is entirely dependent on where you fit in the Oppressor/Oppressed schema.

Sierras23's avatar

The intersectional thinking is the death of freedom.

Celia M Paddock's avatar

It is fundamentally the opposite of "all men are created equal." It sets up a social hierarchy that is as oppressive (in the real sense) as any system in history.

PoetKen Jones's avatar

Indeed while in the same breath they would deny any natural hierarchies. Perhaps the most influential course I ever took was ANT 323 Primate Behavior where we observed a vervet and Sykes monkey colony in person at Balcones Research Center; they were not competing for oppression points despite literally living in a cage but they had a ruthlessly obvious social heriarchy. P S people hate me for this comment frequently but “All People are created equal” I.e. avoid sexist language 💕 🤠